Episode 55: How Biofilms Impact UTIs, Interstitial Cystitis, and Chronic Infection with Ruth Kriz, APRN
Show Summary:
If you suffer from chronic urinary tract infections, also known as UTIs, or interstitial cystitis, you know how difficult it can be to deal with the symptoms of bladder pain and discomfort. While diets, supplements, and medications are often used, few are aware of the important connection between biofilms and interstitial cystitis.
Today we are talking with Ruth Kriz all about biofilms and why you should know about them.
Ruth Kriz is a nurse practitioner who specializes in treating chronic UTI and interstitial cystitis patients. Her interest in biofilms, genetics, and mycotoxins developed through her discovery of an association between those factors and chronic UTIs and interstitial cystitis.
Please enjoy our conversation that explores the world of biofilms, how they impact our health, and what you can do about biofilms that might be impacting your interstitial cystitis and UTIs.
Timestamps:
0:00 - Introduction
3:10 - How Ruth got interested in biofilms and chronic infections
8:29 - What are biofilms?
13:12 - Biofilms and Alzheimer’s
17:47 - Biofilms, antibiotics and Interstitial Cystitis
24:24 - Treatments of IC and UTIs
39:00 - Biofilms and COVID
45:21 - How bacteria and biofilms interact
46:15 - Cardiovascular disease and biofilms
48:43 - Supplements Ruth would bring to a desert island
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Full Script:
Ruth Kriz:
We need to go back and think for a minute about what biofilms do. It's not just a matter of walling off the infection or embedding the infection, but they make treatment much, much more difficult. There's about five things that I think I should list here. First of all, the antibiotics can't get through the biofilm to the bacteria very well. Partial partially, partial penetration is what I shouldn't say. The antibiotic means that the bacteria only see its sub therapeutic dose of the antibiotic. They don't get enough antibiotic to eradicate the infection. But they do get enough it's sort of like giving a vaccination in which they they now recognize that class of antibiotics and they can develop resistance genes. So when you start having multi drug resistant bacteria, that's a big red flag that you're dealing with a biofilm.
Dr. Andrew Wong:
If you suffer from chronic urinary tract infections, also known as UTIs, or a condition called interstitial cystitis, you know how difficult it can be to deal with the symptoms of bladder pain and discomfort. While diet supplements and medications are often used, few are aware of the important connection between biofilms and interstitial cystitis. Today we're talking with Ruth Kriz all about biofilms and why you should know about them. Ruth Kriz is an amazing nurse practitioner who specializes in treating chronic urinary tract infections and interstitial cystitis. Her interest in biofilms genetics and mycotoxins developed through discovery of an association between these factors and chronic urinary tract infections and interested interstitial cystitis. I am Dr. Andrew Wong, co founder of capital Integrative Health. This is a podcast that is dedicated to transforming the consciousness around what it means to be healthy, and understanding the root causes of both disease and wellness. I will also say that this conversation was really mind blowing because biofilms can actually affect many other conditions, including chronic infections, chronic fatigue, etc. So really a amazing conversation to delve into today. Hope you enjoy it. All right. Well welcome Ruth Chris to the podcast. Thank you so much for being on today.
Ruth Kriz:
It's my delight to be here and to share with you some of the things that I've learned about chronic infections and how biofilms relate to that.
Dr. Andrew Wong:
So we are going to be talking about the wonderful world of biofilms and immune health and how they can really impact people's health how we can overcome, you know, biofilm related chronic illness today with Ruth, who is a expert in this area. But first, Ruth, let's kind of go a bit more personal and talk about what kind of got you interested in biofilms and, and chronic infections in the first place.
Ruth Kriz:
Certainly, um, I need to back up just a little bit. And because you're based in Maryland, I'll say that I was born and raised in Western Maryland. I had the privilege of working in a pediatricians office in high school and did a project in a microbiology lab from biology in 10th grade and really got introduced to this whole area of medicine and how exciting it was to discover the relationships in the world between the way the microbes worked and the way people worked and how that contributed to their health. I have a pretty extensive public health background and was fortunate enough when I was at Washington County Health Department to have my office right below the Johns Hopkins Research Center, which was in Hagerstown, Maryland, and the director that was Dr. George Comstock, who was the world's leading authority on tuberculosis, and he was their adviser on the World Health Organization. We got a pretty good education about tuberculosis. And I discovered that this could be a chronic infection that required long term treatment. And that was a different model than I think most doctors or or any health care provider is exposed to most of the exposures for acute illness, in which you give a short course of antibiotics and the person recovers. And yet here was a situation where someone, well, not someone, but a whole population had an infection that was chronic and did require long term treatment. This sort of set the stage for me when I had repeated urinary tract infections, and eventually I think it took me about, oh, gosh, at least seven or eight doctors and four or five years to get an interstitial cystitis diagnosis. And at that point, I was too sick to work. It was debilitating. I chronically felt like I had a urinary tract infection, but I was being told that the cultures were negative. And therefore, I had interstitial cystitis which was considered chronic, degenerative and uncurable. And, during that time, a bunch of us before the years of internet, were communicating by phone and letter. And I learned about a PhD microbiologist Paul Foucault's zato, who was using broth cultures instead of the standard urine agar plates, culture plates and was finding infection. And so I sent my urine off to him. And lo and behold, it came back with a bunch of nasty bacteria that he treated. And although it took two years of sending him specimens on a monthly basis, we went after infection after infection after infection. And I recovered and have been quite healthy with that for over 30 years now. So that gave me a heart and a compassion for people who struggle and are just basically told with these chronic infections, well, it's just something you have to learn to live with it. Or they end up on the doctor's doorstep every month or two within another's supposedly new urinary tract infection. And they're just caught in this vicious cycle and don't have a way out.
Dr. Andrew Wong:
That's really powerful story. So just curious when you're treating your own interstitial cystitis, which sounds like turned out to be a chronic bladder infection were you treating with with antibiotics or herbals? Or were you checking with biofilm treatments as well?
Ruth Kriz:
Oh, this was long before the discovery of biofilms. We're talking of the 1980s the dark ages here
Dr. Andrew Wong:
Dark Ages.
Ruth Kriz:
It turns out that that long term antibiotics do chip away at biofilms. That's still the mechanism that people depend on to teach to treat tuberculosis, chronic prostatitis and a lot of other infections. But there are more efficient ways of learning what's causing the biofilm. And then once you have that piece of information, then you know the best way to break it down. So you don't end up having to do antibiotics long term like I did.
Dr. Andrew Wong:
So let's talk about biofilms and how they impact human health but first of all, just talk real basic about what biofilms are, why they're so important.
Ruth Kriz:
Certainly, um I think when most people think about biofilm say think of gooey gooey slime. And that is somewhat of a misnomer that it was even named film because that conjures in our head that that image of something that's that's a slime covering. That might be true in the GI track. Certainly in the dental world, there's a there's a slimy covering on the teeth that accumulates like overnight while you brush your teeth. And we know that that slime does harbor bacteria that dentists are sort of ahead of the rest of the medical community in appreciating the importance of of addressing that because the funding has been mostly with the oil industry. Most of the of the research comes out of the biofilm Research Center in Montana, in which the microbiologist there are studying petroleum degrading bacteria in the oil pipes. And those petroleum degrading bacteria are in biofilms and that probably is more of a slime. But let's talk about the other types that we have that I think are more relevant to people in the medical community. First of all bacteria can make their own by Little films. And that's what most microbiologist are able to look at and study in their labs. And that's what the oil industry is mainly looking at. This type of biofilm is called an extracellular DNA biofilm. And some pathogens do a better job of doing that than others. And that also explains why some infections like tuberculosis, H. Pylori that causes stomach ulcers, Pseudomonas and Klebsiella can be more difficult to treat than other infections. And just to make it a little more complicated, this extracellular DNA, biofilm can also produce amyloid fibers and amyloid is what we sort of associate with the brain and Alzheimer's. But this extracellular DNA produces amyloid fibers that act like hooks that attach the bacteria to a surface. So that's certainly different than an ooey, gooey slime that we envision. The second main way in which people get biofilms is that the body itself is capable of producing something called a fibrin biofilm. And I sort of think of fibrin is that spider web material to which blood cells attached a form of blood clot. And that's what happens if you have an acute injury, you cut yourself, the body produces a lot of fiber in the red blood cells attached to it and you get a nice little clot and then a scab. But if the process is is acute, or I mean not acute, but it's slow that gets triggered by infection. There isn't clotting, but you get fibrin that ends up depositing. Either in this biofilm structure or in the arteries is atherosclerotic plaque. And this is a much slower ongoing process. This bacteria, this fibrin I should say is not cooked spaghetti. Like you see in some of the diagrams, it's more like uncooked rigid spaghetti. That gives it a three dimensional structure. And I do have pictures of these biofilm pods in the bladder that are three dimensional. And that's what makes this type of biofilm different than the others and this is what makes the bio being able to break down that fibrin is essential if you're going to if you're going to disrupt that type of biofilm.
Dr. Andrew Wong:
And you you said there's a couple of other biofilm types as well or the you said there's extracellular DNA fibrin amyloid biofilms, do they does amyloid biofilms contribute to Alzheimer's?
Ruth Kriz:
Yes, I'm Alan McDonald, who's a pathologist has spoken many a time at some conferences that I've attended. And he talks about finding Lyme in his autopsies of Alzheimer's patients. And so we don't know the exact mechanism but it is suggestive that perhaps that amyloid is deposited in an attempt to wall off the lime in the brain.
Dr. Andrew Wong:
What kind of lime? What kind of biofilms rather do do lime organisms Braley etc?
Ruth Kriz:
Yeah, that's a great question. I actually have pictures of fibrin. Biofilms in the bloodstream trying to wall off the lime. And what's really fascinating to me is because lime can go into different forms. There's a spire keep the cell wall deficient in the cyst form. One of the pictures that I have shows all three forms of Lyme from a blood smear in a fibrin matrix. So I think that primarily we're talking about fiber and biofilms with lyme patients.
Dr. Andrew Wong:
Yeah, so it sounds like the function from the body's perspective trying to protect these organisms from spreading is to try to wall them off of the biofilm is that
Ruth Kriz:
I think that's exactly what's going on. Um, you know, we have different pieces of the immune system. And I think that this is one of the body's defenses. Um, it certainly we see that with tuberculosis patients that I mentioned earlier and working with Dr. coms stock was that it was off in the in the lung, it goes into a spore form, it can lie dormant for years and then reactivate when the immune system goes down, it can spread to other places in the body after a long period of time. So, so that model, I think, applies to some of these other chronic infections as well, because that's how the body works. And I want to bring the other piece into this that it's not just a matter of Oh, my body made fibrin and therefore I have biofilms. There's a balance between this coagulation pathway in which the fibrin is generated, and the fibrinolytic pathway in which the extra fibrin gets broken down. And this is where most people differ. Genetically. I mentioned working at the Health Department in Washington County, Maryland. And one of my jobs, there was genetics counseling. We did kind of a little bit of everything, but I was the designated genetics counselor, back when our knowledge of the genetics was in its infancy. And they sent me off to a course. And I learned a lot. And that actually gave me a very good foundation for looking at the genetics of people who have these chronic infections. Why is it that most people get a urinary tract infection, they take a short course of antibiotics, and then three to five days, they're better and they get on with their lives. But there's a subset that do the same thing. And they're still struggling with the urinary issues, weeks, months, sometimes years later. Because these infections have been come chronic, what makes that group of people different than other people? So I guess I'll elaborate on that, or do you want it? Do you have another question?
Dr. Andrew Wong:
Yeah, no, no, I think I think just, it sounds like biofilms are really causative of this persistent symptoms of I think you're experiencing a lot of 1000s of other people by millions of other people, recurrent urinary tract infections, interstitial cystitis. Let's get into that, because I know that's one of your specialties. Just to kind of reiterate, I think for people for listeners here, why are biofilms important in the treatment of recurrent urinary tract infections and interstitial cystitis?
Ruth Kriz:
Well, let me back up just a little bit here. Because I think we, we need to go back and think for a minute about what biofilms do, it's not just a matter of walling off the infection or embedding the infection, but they make treatment much, much more difficult. Um, there's about five things that I think I should list here. First of all, the antibiotics can't get through the biofilm to the bacteria very well. Partial partially, partial penetration is what I should say, of the antibiotic means that the bacteria only see its sub therapeutic dose of the antibiotic. They don't get enough antibiotic to eradicate the infection. But they do get enough it's sort of like giving a vaccination in which they they now recognize that class of antibiotics and they can develop resistance genes. So when you start having multi drug resistant bacteria, that's a big red flag that you're dealing with a biofilm. The second thing is that these drug resistance properties get communicated to other bacteria within the matrix. So quorum sensing is used for bug aid to educate bugs B, C, D, and E. That were now smart. We are resistant to this class of drugs. Um, the next way in which the biofilm protects the bacteria, is they actually develop pumps that pump the antibiotic out of this biofilm, sort of like a bilge pump on a ship. They have a certain pH within the biofilm and are therefore able to inactivate some of the antibiotics And then the last thing, I think is an important point that that is not well appreciated that if you continue asleep give antibiotics, you're, you're able to drive the bacteria into a cell wall deficient state. We see this in Lyme that the doxycycline will drive the back, the spire keyed into a cell wall deficient or L form of the lime. Well, the same thing happens with other bacteria, there are certain drugs that if you give over a prolonged period of time, will drive these bacteria into a cell wall deficient state. And the cell wall deficient bacteria, first of all, don't grow on a culture plate, which explains why many I see patients have negative cultures on the plate. But but also, it can drive it into a stable form. And those stable forms are metabolically dormant. They aren't growing anymore. And antibiotics can only work on growing bacteria. So I know that there are some providers who recommend, you know, they look at a lab report, they see what bacteria you have they hand the patient a prescription for the next year of their life and say, we're putting you on this antibiotic for the next year. Well, I don't think that's a good idea, because I think that is producing stable cell wall deficient bacteria or persister cells. And then you really are in trouble because you can't kill these bacteria anymore.
Dr. Andrew Wong:
The bacteria play possum, essentially, and they play dead. Essentially, they kind of become metabolically inactive, and then the immune system just doesn't recognize them as that.
Ruth Kriz:
Exactly. And these biofilms will protect them. They give them a happy,
Dr. Andrew Wong:
awesome with a forcefield, essentially, basically, yeah,
Ruth Kriz:
it's it's a major, it's a major problem. And I think that we have to be very careful and judicious in the way in which antibiotics are prescribed. We also know that different bacteria will come out of the biofilm at different times. So if if I have somebody that has three or four pathogens, and I treat them, and then the next time when they are tested, they have two or three different ones. It's easy to assume that that's a new infection. But the reality is that the chronic or the recurrent UTI person generally has lots of different bacteria within the biofilm. And different ones come out at different times. And so it's not a brand new acute infection. It's actually the same old infection with different pieces of it breaking off and becoming free floating in the urine.
Dr. Andrew Wong:
So it's kind of like a museum with a rotating Art Gallery pieces not to try to say museums or biofilms at all.
Ruth Kriz:
No, that's a great analogy because um, you know, I've heard it called an apartment building Zoo. I mean, take your your analogy anywhere you want to go with it. But the reality is that when you see on a lab report more than two pathogens, you're dealing with a biofilm. And unfortunately, the standard microbiology labs if they see more than two pathogens, they will throw it away and reported as contaminated.
Dr. Andrew Wong:
You treated 1000s of patients with chronic interstitial cystitis. So one of the big tip comes in I'm getting here is that and hopefully listeners are there as well is that I see is really mostly chronic bacterial infection with biofilm over top of that, how long does it take most people in your wide ranging experience here to treat you know, successfully treat icy and chronic urinary tract infections?
Ruth Kriz:
Oh, it's so individual. I mean, if there's a person who started having urinary issues six months earlier, if they haven't had a prior history of recurrent UTIs it may only take a few months to clear up completely using advanced diagnostics with molecular or DNA testing, knowing what their genetics are, and going after the biofilms appropriately. If somebody has some genetic issues that make it difficult for them to break found the biofilms. And this has been going on for years, I would say it could take up to two years they didn't get here overnight. We're not going to fix it overnight.
Dr. Andrew Wong:
So that's a really key point. Because chronic infections, you can't just go after the bacteria. You have to go after the biofilm as well. And sometimes, like you said, some people are genetically set up to not break down the biofilms as he's right. So they need a little bit of assistance there to accelerate that.
Ruth Kriz:
Yeah, and we should, we should go back to that that piece. When your body in response to infection starts making extra fibrin. The response should be that there are certain things in the fibrinolytic system that break down the extra fiber, and there's a balance here.
Dr. Andrew Wong:
fibrinolytic means lysis, breaking down the fibrin.
Ruth Kriz:
Exactly, exactly. And so the main pieces in the fibrinolytic system are that your body needs to convert something called plasminogen to plasmin. And plasma is sort of like a good Pac Man that goes around and gobbles up digests the extra fibrin. And in order to do that, there are several pieces. One is TPA tissue plasminogen activator. And TPA is that clot buster that they use in the emergency room for people coming in with heart attacks and strokes. And that's something your body manufactures. The other piece is something called thrombin, anti thrombin complexes. And both of those, and there's some other players as well. But those are the major ones. Those are the ones that should be up regulating, or producing more of themselves to go into battle to break down the extra fibrin. If you have certain genetics, your body doesn't do as good a job making thrombin anti thrombin complexes, or you bind up or down regulate TPA so that you can't convert plasminogen to plasmin as well as everybody else. Now, those particular genetic variations or mutations are found in about 20% of the general population. Probably their ancestors were in battle, they got wounded. And because they caught it off better and faster than the guy bleeding out next to him. They recovered and went home and had your great great, great grandparents. And that's why you're here today. So there is a genetic advantage to having one of these mutations, if you plan on going out into battle and being potentially wounded.
Dr. Andrew Wong:
Braveheart, Braveheart. Yeah. Right.
Ruth Kriz:
If you aren't one of those people, however, it does have the downside. And the downside is that you do not break down fibrin as well as other people. And if you don't break down fibrin, as well as other people, if you get an infection, and we're talking about prostatitis or UTIs, or sinus infections, or ear infections in kids or Lyme, or a wound, I mean, any any type of infection that you get, if you're not breaking down the fibrin, you're gonna get more extensive biofilms and you are more likely for your infection to become chronic than other people. So that's the flip side of this. Now. Interestingly, the people who do the best job of making the biofilms are often less symptomatic than the people who do a good job of breaking down the biofilms. So using your symptoms of having a urinary tract infection as a guideline for when you get tested or when you get treated. It's a little deceptive.
Dr. Andrew Wong:
Well, it's a silent killer, right? It's the silence. It's sort of meaning the body's walling off these infections. So that's why people are not symptomatic.
Ruth Kriz:
Yeah, absolutely. It's sort of like, so when I hear the guideline from the American Urological Association, Oh, you don't have to treat a high load of bacteria in the urine. If the person isn't symptomatic. That's sort of like saying we don't have to treat your high blood pressure because you haven't had a stroke. If there is bacteria, that is documented, it needs to be treated and hopefully With the correct biofilm disruptor and so let's talk a little bit about what biofilm disruptors get used for which types of biofilms and for which genetic conditions. Because this is the crux of how we're going to get people better, is knowing the best way that they can break down the biofilms that they have. We mentioned earlier about extracellular DNA where the bacteria themselves make their own biofilm. It turns out that there's a substance called business. Most people have heard of Pepto Bismol, it has Bismuth in it. Bismuth is one of those transitional metals, which means it isn't really quite a heavy metal. But it does also mean that it isn't something that you take for months and months and months or years and years because you can potentially reach a toxic level. There are a lot of excellent studies in the literature, showing the efficacy of Bismuth in breaking down extracellular DNA biofilms, particularly for a few select pathogens that we know about. We know that some of the other ones do make extracellular DNA but the research isn't there to substantiate which biofilm disruptors work best for those particular organisms. The ones that the Bismuth works on are h pylori, which causes stomach ulcers. And that's why all the protocols out there for treating stomach ulcers have antibiotics plus Bismuth. The Bismuth doesn't kill bacteria, but it breaks down the biofilms. So the antibiotics will work. The literature also is very extensive about how well Bismuth works if you have Pseudomonas or Klebsiella. And those two particular infections are known to be difficult to get rid of. They're known to be ones that that stay around a very long time and are and are harder to treat. I think they're harder to treat because of their extracellular DNA. If you give a biofilm disruptor with bismuth, then the antibiotics will be more effective. And the one I recommend is from priority one it is called biofilm phase two advanced although I know some compounding pharmacies make up capsules with bismuth and so it's not the only way to get it I'm not sure I'd take Pepto Bismol but um, but I think that that is the biofilm disruptor that is needed if any lab report shows that you have Pseudomonas or Klebsiella. Now the other part with the fiber and biofilms is where I have done the majority of my work. I mentioned that 20% of the general population genetically has difficulty breaking down fibrin. That is because they carry one of three genetic variations or mutations that that interfere with this fibrinolytic process. The one that I found most frequently is called pa i hyphen, one pi one and that stands for plasminogen activator inhibitor. So when we talked about the fibrinolytic pathway being dependent upon converting plasminogen into plasmon if you have this pi one mutation, you don't convert plasminogen to plasmin very efficiently like everybody else. Okay. So if you have a PI one mutation, you will break down your fibrin well, and you will have more extensive biofilms and it'll be harder to treat your infections. Now, interestingly, this pie one mutation is considered so rare that hematologists don't even routinely check for it. I had hundreds of them. This This one is the is the most important one. I found this twice as often as I did the all the the other two put together. And I think that this is an important one because people with PI one mutations have an increased incidence of miscarriages. They're more likely to have deep vein thrombosis, heart attack strokes. They have a family history of cardiovascular disease. And because this is a fibrin problem, you treat it with a fibrinolytic giving someone aspirin which works on platelets, and platelet stickiness is not going to fix the too much fibrin problem. So it's important to know if you have that particular genetic issue. The second one that was I found most indexed with the next degree of frequency was lipoprotein, a lipoprotein a or LP little a some people call it is a form of bad LDL cholesterol. There's about 10 different genes that regulate lipoprotein a so this technically is not a genetic test, it's simply a lab test, where you get a number and either your lipoprotein A is high or it is not, if it is high, that extra lipoprotein a binds to TPA, which we talked about earlier as needing as necessary to convert plasminogen to plasmon. So, getting the lipoprotein A levels down is not always easy. These tend to be my most difficult patients to treat and the ones that take the longest. They need niacin, not the no flush niacin amide, but they need niacin to lower the lipoprotein a it does not respond to diet or exercise or statin drugs, you can lower the total LDL with statin drugs, but it won't address that lipoprotein a part of it. That can take months to bring that down, they also need a fibrinolytic to break down the fiber. And that has built up as a result of not breaking down fiber and well. The last one is called Leiden factor five, which most people have heard of it. It blocks activated protein see but that's a finer detail that most people need because I only found about 18 or 20 of those that have hundreds and hundreds. So getting the testing done through lab core will tell you which one could be a contributor for you. insurance pays for it. I think it's essential for this chronic population instead of guessing what the problem might be. I should mention that the fibrinolytic that I use most often. Until I knew what the genetics were Kirkman biofilm defense is a good start place to start. I highly recommend doing that one for a week before doing the urine testing if if what you're looking for is is chronic UTIs. Or I see once you know the genetics if there is a PI one lipoprotein a or Leiden factor five issue, then lumber Oh kinase is the Cadillac of fiber analytics. And we should talk a little bit about using that for long COVID. But we can move on on this if you want.
Dr. Andrew Wong:
Yes, I think everyone is really interested in that, you know, millions of people now have long COVID How do biofilms contribute to long COVID? And how would you think about addressing that although we know this is not a medical treatment podcast, but that definitely just some ideas for people. I know that a lot of people out there with lung COVID Or have loved ones that have lung COVID.
Ruth Kriz:
From my pediatric background, I'm very aware of a condition called pandas, which is pediatric associated neuro mumbles I'm sure all the letters can stand for something that's I should remember right now and I don't
Dr. Andrew Wong:
it's not a cute it's not a cute round black and white animal. That's not what it is. Right? That's not what it is. Okay.
Ruth Kriz:
Anyway, these children get a strep infection, they get strep throat. They may or may not have gotten the antibiotics for that. And then afterwards, they start developing psychiatric symptoms such as nervous tics, obsessive compulsive behavior, rage attacks, a whole spectrum of neurologic issues that surface. And what's puzzling about this is that this strep antibody titers and other markers that you can measure remain elevated but you can Can't find the strep infection on a throat swab anymore. And so most of these children are put on long term antibiotics that treat strep and as long as they stay on those, they function much better. But oftentimes when they come off of the antibiotic, their OCD and their neurologic problems come right back with a vengeance. And I had the opportunity to treat some of these children. And every one of them had one of these biofilm problems genetically. And when I address that, we were able to get complete remission of the pandas, they were able to come off of their antibiotics, and the strep titers with time came back down. So these infections were being walled off in the biofilm. And I think a similar process is what's going on in the long COVID patient because biofilms can not only wall off bacteria, but there was a great article published just this year, June 22, talking about how viruses can also wall off in biofilms. Now I was suspicious of this. But I hadn't found the literature to document
Dr. Andrew Wong:
I was gonna ask that question. I'm glad that came out in time for this podcast. Yes,
Ruth Kriz:
yes, yes. Hot off the press. So about a month ago, a number of articles showed up. Talking about long COVID patients having elevated levels of anti plasmon I just saw your eyes get big. light bulb went on illuminations in these long COVID patients six months and even a year later after having had COVID. Why would somebody have elevated levels of anti plasma? That's the question. The answer is if your own fibrinolytic system has been pushing and pushing for month after month after month to break down the extra fibrin because the infection is still there. The body has an emergency braking system on this conversion of plasminogen to plasmin. It produces anti plasmon
Dr. Andrew Wong:
essentially an autoimmune attack because the body's kind of like hey, wait a minute. There's too much plasma now.
Ruth Kriz:
There's we have been fighting this battle too long, too hard like
Dr. Andrew Wong:
we have ready to stop. Sure. Well, I'll take a little break, go to the beach for vacation. Wow. That's so that's so interesting. That's so interesting. So why why does the virus persist? Is it because of the fibrin biofilm that protects it? Obviously, there's other reasons but
Ruth Kriz:
yep. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. I think that that's one of the body's defenses to try to wall it off in a biofilm. Just like it tries to wall bacteria off in a biofilm.
Dr. Andrew Wong:
And then of course, as you know, you know, are good friend, Beth surely right. There's like impaired nitric oxide. So that circulation isn't getting to the biofilm either. We're carrying those immune cells.
Ruth Kriz:
Exactly. But let me go back. So yeah, this explains to me why Lambro kinase, the Cadillac of fiber analytics, is now being used in many long COVID protocols. Yeah, and why it's helping people with long COVID.
Dr. Andrew Wong:
What else do you recommend for you know, other factors to consider besides biofilm treatment with these kinds of chronic infections?
Ruth Kriz:
Oh, I'm not the right person to discuss that mainly because I do bladders. And biofilms and coagulation. Yeah, but but I think that this is an important piece of the puzzle and I do agree that it would be good to have something on board a good antiviral or something to meet, greet and kill the pathogens, whatever they are coming out of the biofilm a friendly
Dr. Andrew Wong:
assassin basically, for Yes, viruses. Well, you know, these viruses too, we are always kind of taught, I think, just why as we listen to our bodies, and I think that's a really big take home for today's podcast is viruses or bacteria that are sitting there that we've been infected with. They don't always just go away poof magic, right? Like someone might have not as many symptoms, they feel good, they're back to work. They're back to playing and doing whatever they're doing. But they might be then they're walled off by the biofilm that might cause problems later, like long COVID
Ruth Kriz:
Sure, actually. And we know viruses do that. I mean, think about shingles. Yeah, yeah. You know, it lies from chickenpox. 40 years and then later, it's like dormant and then and then reactivate. So we know that that's what happens that the immune system tells these bad guys to go off and sit in the corner and not to come out and cause trouble. And then as you age, the immune system as pieces of the immune system go down, you get a severe illness or infection and the immune system is off fighting that battle. And these guys come out to play again.
Dr. Andrew Wong:
And the biofilms probably can only contain infections for a finite period of time, or do they? You know, how do these organisms escape the biofilm?
Ruth Kriz:
Ah, they don't escape as much as as they slowly multiply and the biofilm grows pieces of the biofilm break off and get go out to explore new and exciting places to establish a new attachment.
Dr. Andrew Wong:
Okay. Okay. So there's a lot here. Thank you so much for you for coming on. I think this hopefully gives our listeners that are having some these chronic issues, whether it's interstitial cystitis or long COVID. And I would just I have to mention that because you know, cardiovascular disease is still number one killer, that that you know, really chronic infections can be a root cause it sounds like it's the root cause of a lot of right chronic chronic infections will cause fibrin biofilms, which then lead to cardiovascular clotting risk, right? So essentially, that's going to be a root cause of cardiovascular disease as well.
Ruth Kriz:
Yeah, let me let me also add that if you have one of these genetic issues, not everybody gets dealt a perfect genetic hand, I'm staying on a fibrinolytic. The rest of your life is wise not only from the standpoint of helping to make your treatment for the the current infection, move faster and eradicating that infection. But it also is important so that that fibrin doesn't build up and produce heart attacks and strokes and hypertension, and cardiovascular disease in the future. And I think most all of this population has parents or grandparents or aunts or uncles, who have had heart attacks or strokes or other cardiovascular, you know, clotting issues, other cardiovascular diseases, and so you know that you're at higher risk, but having this information is power, because now you can do something about it. It's not just a matter of crossing your fingers fingers and saying a prayer, that you're not going to go down that same path. I have a good friend from high school. And she's she has been convinced for years that she's not going to live beyond a certain age because that's when her parents died. And that's when her aunts and uncles died. And that's just what happens to her family. But I don't think you have to buy into that. I think that you can get the testing needed to know if your chronic infections are due to a biofilm problem. And then you address that based on the genetics with the proper biofilm disruptors. And then you stay on those for your long term health.
Dr. Andrew Wong:
You can't really change the cards you've been dealt, but you can shift the odds in favor. Sounds like you know, what's going on?
Ruth Kriz:
Absolutely, absolutely.
Dr. Andrew Wong:
So Ruth, thank you so much for coming on. Again, we have a fun closing question for you. You are an expert in integrative functional health. And if you were on a desert island, I'm not sure if the desert island has biofilms or not. But
Ruth Kriz:
my body does. Okay. All right. Well
Dr. Andrew Wong:
go that will help with this question, then, what three supplements would you bring with you to optimize your health?
Ruth Kriz:
Well, of course number one is Lambro kinase. That's going to break down the fibrin on an ongoing basis. So any infection I get is not going to become chronic and I can lower my cardiovascular disease risk. I have a personal history of blood clots. I do have parents grandparents that have had heart attacks and strokes. So for me that one move would be number one. The second one we didn't discuss, but it would be vitamin D 100% of my chronic UTI, I see patients had a vitamin D receptor mutation. They made vitamin D as well as everybody else but their bodies just don't hold on to it. It is a receptor issue. The bladder wall needs vitamin D to make cathelicidin a peptide that prevents UTIs. So with my history, vitamin D would be right up there on the list. I would like to think on a desert island that I could make enough vitamin D but we know that in response to the sunlight, the skin darkens and it takes more and more sun exposure to make the same amount of vitamin D
Dr. Andrew Wong:
there might be A lot of palm trees on the island. So there's there's a lot of shade. So yeah,
Ruth Kriz:
and as you age, your skin does not make as much vitamin D. So I would want vitamin D. And the last one is a little bit more esoteric called nerf to NRF. Two, it's made from broccoli. And the other thing that 100% of my patients had was a CBS SR theanine, beta synthase mutation, which meant that you make too much ammonia, and not enough cysteine to help you detox the nerf to will help your body convert the SR theanine to cysteine. So you can detox and make less and you will make less ammonia. The ammonia is important because when it builds up in the bladder, particularly at night, the very smart veterinarians because cats get interstitial cystitis have discovered that high levels of ammonia destroys the bladder lining or the gag layer. And that's a definition of interstitial cystitis in a nutshell. So for me Lambro kinase, vitamin D, and nerf two would be the three supplements that I would take with me to the just to the desert island to help keep my body functioning as well as it can.
Dr. Andrew Wong:
Thank you. I do have to follow up with the question on the gag layer. So is there a way to build that up again?
Ruth Kriz:
Oh, it will. It will. Yes. And yes. The body turns over tissues in the body routinely it takes about four months for a bladder wall a damaged bladder wall to repair. After you have gotten rid of the infection just like a cut on your arm. If it's infected, it won't heal until you address the infection. Same thing happens with the bladder wall so the bladder wall will repair by itself. Now, there have been some studies done with conjoint and hyaluronic acid as bladder installations to accelerate that process that is been marketed in Europe for some time. And the FDA refused to let it be marketed in the United States. For a while I had a compounding pharmacy making it up. But once the FDA gave it a thumbs down, they were no longer legally allowed to do that.
Dr. Andrew Wong:
Oh, wow. Unfortunate. Well, thank you so much Ruth, for coming on today. You're such a wealth of knowledge. Thank you for your generosity and sharing that with our listeners. And hopefully it's been helpful for a lot of people I know it has, but how can listeners learn more about you and your work in educating the population with kind of how to deal with these these things?
Ruth Kriz:
Um, I have closed my medical practice at this point, but I have reinvented that's different than retiring. That's right. As a as a consultant for practitioners, listeners can go to Ruth's chris.com. There's a scheduling link that the practitioners can use to schedule time with me using my scheduling link. They can go to live UTI free.com, and learn more about my approach. There's also unlive UTI free a list of practitioners including Capitol integrative health, with whom I consult, and I help practitioners interpret the results of the lab tests, and I make treatment recommendations. I can also help with advising your practitioner, which biofilm disruptors would be the most effective for you, and work with them to help you overcome chronic infections.
Dr. Andrew Wong:
I love that website. You live YouTube free.com Who wouldn't want that? But again, Ruth, great that you're right here close in a fairly neighboring state, North Carolina. Hopefully the weather's good down there. And good luck with that. And we will talk to you soon. Thank you so much for educating us here at CH and all of our listeners.
Ruth Kriz:
Well thank you so much for having me on. And I've really enjoyed being able to share with you and your listeners the things that I've learned.
Dr. Andrew Wong:
Thank you so much. Thank you for taking the time to listen to us today. If you enjoyed this conversation, please take a moment to leave us a review. It helps our podcasts to reach more listeners. Don't forget to subscribe so you don't miss our next episodes and conversations. And thank you so much again for being with us.